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maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 06:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good to introduce into a young horse's training or not? What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.facebook.com/PKHorsemanship/videos/10154483250535897/?fref=mentions
bythebay (bythebay)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 07:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would never not teach my young horses disengaging. I have seen someone get kicked bad on the ground from a horse that had no idea what this was so as she turned the horse to keep it from barging ahead, it swung its hind toward her instead of away and disengaged. Under saddle, it's an "easy" way to redirect naughty behavior then move on ahead. It's priceless in keeping a safety brake riding in the open. I still see horses with all the back tension, etc that he says it causes when they aren't taught this so I dont believe it's a cause/ effect. When taught "softly" and the release is timed well,it starts body suppleness.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 09:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think as he says, it's a valuable tool, but can be overdone. It can indeed put lot's of damaging stress on the hind end. I have cringed when I have seen people spinning their horses fast over and over to disengage. If your horse is taught softness and to bend and give to pressure and you can control the head and shoulders...then that goes a long way in controlling your horse in most any situation. Because really....control the head...control the horse. But, disengaging the hind end is an important tool to use...sometimes.
Everything is a choice.
memom (memom)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 07:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Won't load. Jc, Control the head, yes but my Arab mare is so flexible she can turn her head quite a bit while trotting or even cantering straight ahead. Not a trait to encourage lol.
"Don't wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain."(author?)MA
memom (memom)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 07:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I meant the site won't load, not my horse, haha
"Don't wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain."(author?)MA
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 08:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess I should say except for the Gumby horses..ha, ha! The ones who can touch your back between your shoulder blades when you turn their heads!!! Those short necked and short backed horses can definitely be a challenge. And with an Arab, it's really more like dancing and they are leading correct????? So nimble they are!
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 06:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One thing about horse training, everyone has an opinion. No problem, thats what makes discussion.
I've had horses of many breeds (not all) , different sizes and shapes. I've never had a hind end issue caused by disengaging a horse.
Give a horse a little credit for being athletic, even from birth. Watch horses is the wide open when they're feeling frisky. They can contort their bodies in all kinds of ways. Buck, rear, twist etc. They can go from standing still, ice cold to a flat run in a spit second. They can roughneck with each other without problem. I never see them get hurt. They're flight or fight animals built for this and they hone their natural abilities more times than on may think, if given the opportunity. It's not natural for a horse to stand around all day in a stall or small paddock. Same with calves, and fawns, spend time watching them, they play just like puppies.
Teaching a horse to disengage and teaching a one rein stop along with whoa, ho or whatever is essential. Contrary to what some trainers think, they do communicate with humans orally, just have to teach them. I had a reminder yesterday. I forgot to take the feed bag off my old horse. I did a few things, got sidetracked and was about to leave the pasture. I closed the gate and started walking away when I heard a nicker, did you forget something Bill? I took the bag off.
If a horse had hind end problems to start with, I probably wouldn't do this or ride the horse to start with.
Riding in a ring, prim and proper is a bit different than being out where there could be danger lurking around the next corner.
Teaching your horse to trust your judgement as a leader is done by moving their feet, including the hind end, which is most important because that's where the power is.
A horse ready to do something bad, jams it's hind feet together. The power comes from the hind, not the front. If you can catch it fast enough and disengage the hind end, you can ward off the flight instinct and regain control and the leadership roll because you've taught the horse this, to trust you. As with everything else in horse training, the more you practice, the better the horse will respond and trust you.
Got a horse that won't stand still when you're trimming it's feet? Move the horse to get them to stand still. It only takes a minute, you need room, not an isle. As soon as the horse stops moving, continue trimming. They get it.
I also love RFD tv. There's lots of good horse training info on there, mostly geared for western riding which would eliminate about 75% of the east.
delilah (delilah)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 08:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill how do post a video on youtube that I want to share?
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 09:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Go to youtube.com get an account (doesn't cost anything) Once you're on, type in How to upload a video. Follow instruction. Or, you can get a youtube app for a smart phone. Take a video, in the share box it will give you some sharing options, FB, youtube etc. Click on youtube and your video will be uploaded. If I can figure it out, anyone can.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 09:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, this video is from yesterday, Jodie, the same horse that I chased with my 4 wheeler and scared to death on cross ties in the barn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rlXYpnppgc
bythebay (bythebay)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 09:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well said Bill. Controlling their feet left, right, forward, back is key to the mind. And yes I have a mare who always nickers at the door.. And will eventually give the door a little kick with her front hoof if I put her in and forget that there wasn't hay put in her stall and get busy doing other things. If we listen, we will hear: if we look, we will see.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jodi's a great horse! You seem to like to be constantly referencing the post about trouble catching a horse. I still say that if i wanted a horse to learn to approach me with confidence I would not chase him with an atv where he was running "away" (key word) "away" from me, until he started to tire and started trying to find a way to hide from me behind other horses. Esp in a large field. You may think this is a great way to build trust and others may agree. I think that is okay and everyone has their own methods of connecting with horses. But I also have my thoughts and it is okay if people think I'm wrong, doesn't change my feelings though. It is a forum for discussion, case en point. I'm really happy to see her in with a smaller group and to see her training coming along so well. I've always thought she and Freddie were particularly nice horses. You definitely have a bond with her and a special bond is what we all strive to have with our horses. We just may have different means to an end, but that's okay...

Great video of showing the use of side passing on the trail and it's importance. It definitely takes trust to side pass into tree branches. Jodi's a good girl and a great trail horse and a great all around horse in general. You both make a great pair!!!
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 01:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mares, I'm glad you responded. Contrary to some, I do like opinions even if they are different. What I don't like is when people get nasty, really slinging the dirt but that comes with the territory.
When I or anyone else posts a video, it's open for criticism, especially on youtube. The whole world watches youtube videos. Broad shoulders are required, world wide, things are done differently. Most people think their way is best and the only way.
Almost everyone has a phone or camera that can take video. So, I have said before, show me what you got. Most will choose not to because of the consequences of the nay sayers.
I try to train the way the horse thinks. Horses move other horses feet to get their message across, that's what they do. They use language they understand. A subtle flick of the tail, a pinned ear, a glare, curled nose, and may other gestures, they are sending a message, whether it's pecking order related (mostly) or maybe they just don't like the other horse, whatever. They will drive the horse out of the herd. The horse will most always want to come back in and try to suck up to the leader.
That's all I was trying to do.. talking horse, not human. The next time you see a horse offer a horse a treat during a training session, video it.
In a wide open field I can't run fast enough to keep up. When a dominant horse wants to show it means business, the 4 wheeler will be replaced with blared teeth. Eventually the subordinate horse will get the message and seek relief. If the signs are there the dominant horse sees the signs it will let the horse back in, may be repeated but eventually there will be peace in the herd. Much easier to do in a round pen, have to improvise in a big pasture but the same message.
By the way mares, no way was Jodie sucking for air. These are healthy conditioned horses. I wouldn't run a horse around until, their tongue was hanging on the ground, pasture or round pen. There are many signs that pop up long before that.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 02:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh no, I never intended to say her tongue was hanging out, just that she was tired of trying to find ways to run away from you. Yes, they are def all conditioned and healthy and lucky you are their owner. :-)
tbtrakh (tbaby)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 02:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think horses have their own personalities and some may be well trained and may be more spirited and strong willed than others. They may be well trained and know what they're supposed to do and just not feel like doing what we want at the time. Some people may say that's poor training but who said they're robots.
Good performance horses, especially cross country and jumping horses have to be able to think independently and make decisions about footing and fences to be safe for horse and rider.

My horses will come to me when I call them but sometimes they tell me they need more freedom first. Now that my mare feels a little better, she's always hanging out with her head over the stall wanting interactions and attention. But when she sees me approaching with 5 syringes of meds in my hands to force into her mouth she turns and heads into her runout to tell me to get lost and take the meds and stuff them.
I finally free lunged my boy yesterday in the indoor. His first freedom in weeks, he was thrilled. He rolled then got up and erupted bucking and galloping for a good 20 minutes. I bet he wouldn't have come over if I'd called him then so I let him enjoy his freedom. When he settled into walking and sniffing I called him and he came right over.
As our partners we have to listen to what they try to tell us and respect them too. If they resist there's usually a reason. Sometimes like with Jodie it's a learned bad habit to avoid work. But sometimes like with my guys right now they're trying to tell me they need something more from me, like my boy, or my girl is saying forget the meds. But she has no choice as she needs the meds.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 04:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes on two accounts. Being a working ranch horse, it always meant work when she was roped. And yes, if I saw the 5 syringes heading my way I'd be gone also.
memom (memom)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 07:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jc, "dancing with arabs" so true!
"Don't wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain."(author?)MA
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hind end disengagement. I practice this all the time, no way can this be harmful to the horse unless the horse already has structural issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhmYt0xHWr8&t=2s
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is just a simple little trail course that my friends came up with to have a little fun in the winter months. This is Ruby, our first time being talked through. If I didn't teach her how to disengage her hind end I'm not sure how we could do this. All the horses here can do the same thing. It does get them ready for trail situations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXN3wk29Dms
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Control the front, control the horse. A hind end disengagement is much more than just whipping the horse around in a circle, which is what some people think it is.

http://www.goodhorsemanship.com.au/Blog/Blog.php?post=hindquarter-disengagement-is-not-about-the-hindquarters
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Control the hind, control the motor, that's where the power is.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course you should have control of both, for that matter, the whole horse. Remember this is just a discussion.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I understand Bill, and that's what I am doing right? Discussing.
There are people out there who think simply spinning the horse in tight circles whenever they do something they don't like is the way to "correct" the horse. I guess my point is it's a very valuable tool but be careful not to overdo it.
And yes, the hind end is the motor that provides the power, but it is the front end that helps to harness and direct the motor IF the horse has been properly educated, (gives to pressure, is soft through the head, jaw and poll, wraps around the leg, etc.) So in a horse that has been well schooled then disengaging the hind end shouldn't be a common event. It's a training tool used sparingly, an emergency move.

But if the horse is braced, fighting against the inside or outside reins, and just overall resisting...then you add more risk for an injury. I've just seen so many riders over use this technique and it becomes painful to watch when that happens.

I compare horses to kids and use Ross Greene's analogy that "kids will if they can". I think of horses this way. IF they have been schooled well they will want to get along and try to do what we ask. It's our responsibility to give them the ground work to allow them to make the right choice. They will be clear on what it is we are asking and if there's a lot of behavior happening then back up and find where the hole in your training/parenting is. Then teach those skills.
You perhaps have the experience to be more discriminating in choosing to use this method...but not everyone is so I think it's helpful to just put out there that it should be more complicated than it looks. Yes?
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Monday, September 04, 2017 - 09:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As with everything else, there's a difference in doing something wrong, in-between or right. Here's the problem.. right is good, the other two can make things worse. I had a problem getting Ruby to lay down on command. I could do it with a rope on the leg but not by asking. I was talking with Guy McLean and he said, if training was easy, anyone could do it. He was right, so back I went to the training, now she will lay down on command. Why? Just because.

Using the hind is common and a part of many riding disciplines. Take versatility for one, try backing a horse around objects without moving the hind and front end.

If a horse is resisting, thats when I'd be disengaging, moving the horses feet, hind and front until he complies. It's hard for a horse to blow up when his hind end is disengaging, he'll also realize that going round and round is harder than going forward. Of course if you don't know how to do it properly you could make things worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCJ_0TrHaeA About 4:10

I agree with your last paragraph. This is where training comes in, the trails are where you'll find out if you trained it right.

'
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 07:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Definitely, the trails can tell so much. When I started trail riding with my boy and did Search & Rescue I had to expose my horse to a lot of things he had never seen before. He was used to being ridden in the plains and mountains of Wyoming. He wasn't used to riding along streets, motorcycles, sirens, waving tarps, fires, chain saws 10 feet away, helicopters or riding off alone as they always worked in teams doing cows. The only time I had to disengage his hind end was when I first got him and was on a trail ride with 2 others and a tractor trailer right next to us let go with the air brake (jerk) and he leaped forward. A simple one circle turn and he then stood still to contemplate the scary truck and then was fine. I also tend to use my voice a lot and that is a valuable tool in deescalating situations as well.
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think this was the 2 or 3 time I'd been on him in the round pen. I did my home work. If I let him get his head down and didn't disengage I could have ended up getting bucked off. 32 second into it. I don't know what caused it but this can also happen on the trail, especially on a green horse. I always ride with a short (not tight) rein on an iffy horse. If the head goes down, you're in survival mode. Pressure is the motivator to get the message across, release is the teacher. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2y52j4U-k&index=11&list=PLCLgDSUbXZD9BxACJIqvtQLSwS1Vx26it&t=12s
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 04:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So now that my young horse has had his teeth taken care of by the most awesome dentist, (thank u Dr. Limone), I feel good about bitting him and progressing with his training. I have been doing a lot of ground work. All of your posts have been very helpful. I like the way Bill can point to the horse's side and the horse steps away. I also like how he does everything equal on both sides. So we have been working on lunging and commands and he learns very, very quickly. If I do something 3 days in a row (sometimes just 1 or 2) but for sure 3 days and he's got it. He is such a good boy and a real pleasure to work with. He needed a home and we needed him and I feel like we're helping each other. But anyway, I worked on getting him to cross over correctly today on both sides and am adding that to his daily plan or at least mixing it up in there so he understands. Next will be the surcingle and bridle and to begin getting him used to long lining. He is so much fun I literally cannot wait to get out there every day and work with him. Just what the doctor ordered as they say... :-)
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 06:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great mares! No need to rush. Always leave off on a good note even if you have to back track to find the good, they'll remember it. Starting off on the next lessons will start off with a positive mind for horse and trainer.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 06:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is one of my favorites for staying out of a horses mouth by using the front and hind end. This was for slowing horse down without with little use of the bit, just using the hind and front instead of the bit. The release is most important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IA3YGhz1bM&index=18&list=PLCLgDSUbXZD8B97WOxcKpFk1Cdzf_ZcZp
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 09:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's great mares! You are going to have a lot of fun with him!
Everything is a choice.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, Bill great advice. That is so true and so important. Will remember that each day, each session, so, so important.

jc, yes he really was the right horse for me, he was a God send.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 07:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just spending some time reading about my favorite topic. Horses, training.
For your average rider and horse this may get you in trouble.

The profound effects of engagement on the bit

When the horse works properly engaged on the bit, it not only makes a profound physical transformation to him, it also has a remarkable effect on the horse's mental state. When the horse starts to carry himself using his postural muscles, at the same time connecting with the rider's postural engagement, this goes hand-in-hand with the release of tension. Not only the physical tension the horse has when he carries a rider out of balance, but also the mental tension that is very often present with horses, who are essentially prey animals, and therefore easily stressed when they are not in the security of their natural herd environment.

The amazing thing is that when you put a horse on the bit correctly, not only are you connecting to that horse in a profound way, but you are asking him to give himself over to you in a whole-body way. This is comprised principally of his yeilding to your leg in order to bend round turns in the opposite way as he would naturally, and his giving up the natural flight reflex when he comes off the forehand and balances back to the rider.

When the horse hands his body over to the rider in this way, and he then feels the security that this balanced way of moving and connecting to his rider gives him, this brings about a profound mental shift in the horse in that he releases his need to defend and protect himself, because he senses a great safety in the connection with his rider. In a way, as a rider you have become his 'herd': the security of a trustworthy leader that allows him to relax on a deep mental and emotional level.

The important point here is that in correct riding, you earn the this trust and voluntary submission of the horse in a physical or gymnastic way, by showing the horse that he is safe in balanced motion.

We don't believe that you can ever achieve this level of mental calmness through training the horse by conditioning his mind, as is the methodology of many natural horsemanship methods. Horses are extremely physical beings, everything about their mental state is related to how they feel in their body. In domesticating horses we have (for the most part) removed them from the physical security of the herd, and then in riding them we have upset their natural way of balancing in motion, so, in riding, it is therefore only by giving them back the physical security of the balanced connection of engagement on the bit, that we can give the horse back his natural lack of tension, and maybe even create something more profound.
Jeff Livingstone (hippotekhni)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 07:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very well said. Thank you Bill.
Home of "Enlightened Horsemanship"
www.hippotekhni.com
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 07:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He's the problem. Watch from 9 seconds on by pausing the video.
The horse is telling you it doesn't like bit contact, especially with no release. All the warning signs are there, look at his mouth, swish of the tail, head starts coming down but still the same bit contact in order to slow him down. He finally dropped his head, planted his rear feet and...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKjs7bihXlo Not to worry, she's a very tough girl. She brushed off the dust, got back on and paid more attention to the pain she was inflicting on this green horse with the bit contact.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 08:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"We don't believe that you can ever achieve this level of mental calmness through training the horse by conditioning his mind, as is the methodology of many natural horsemanship methods."

Who's quote is that?

I have to digest that for a bit...I'm not sure one can get the physical aspects you want without first getting the mind to accept what you are asking??? If the horse isn't trusting you first....why should he do what you ask physically??? But, then again, if you are making him physically comfortable...then that earns trust. Chicken or the egg?? Ha, ha!!!
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5988
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 09:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's the whole article. http://www.happy-horse-training.com/on-the-bit.html
I would be interested if dressage were my thing. It's Just not my kind of riding, not necessarily knocking it. All I want are safe happy horses that trust me and are good on trails.
I was on the trail once with a few english riders. They were riding my horses. I looked over at Pokey and he was stretching and bobbing his head. One of the riders said, he needs a drop or flash nose band or something like that. I said.. "just get out of his mouth, he doesn't like the constant bit pressure". The horse was sending a message. All was well after the release.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5989
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, the horse in the bucking video found his release/relief.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5990
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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's a horse and rider, one of my favorites. I even have a picture Stacy and Whizard hanging in my tack room. Wish I could ride like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acEcvkT7xQA
tbtrakh (tbaby)
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Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3112
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 01:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not by any means a "good" dressage rider. I always used to view it as a necessary evil in order to ride the fun phases of cross country jumping and stadium jumping in eventing. My last horse would never go on the bit no matter what you did. My mare hates dressage, doesn't matter if it was me riding her or any of the top instructors I took lessons from in our showing days. After a long time she'd eventually do it, for them and me but there were never any magic tricks or buttons. Jumping a few fences was the trick to get her to relax and use her back and stretch.
Until I rode a few horses that really loved dressage, then I understood the connection a rider can have with the horse. My younger horse has bloodlines of dressage horses as well as jumpers and eventers. From when he was very young, he floated moving and naturally stretched his neck and back just lunging and my instructor when helping ride him early on cmomented that he was born on the bit. There's no pressure on the mouth with correct dressage but a happy willing horse that's light and willing and reaching for the bit and actively looking to strectch. I can loosen the reins and he'll stretch his head and neck looking for contact. You also want them to learn to carry themselves and use their back end correctly but they shouldn't be fighting and leaning and pulling. My mare always felt like a crooked freight train no matter who rode her. She's built differently and was bred to gallop and it was never as easy for her. She used speed and her heart and courage and endless energy and will to fly over anything, not balance. Still a joy to ride but we had some scary moments and she had many injuries from not using her balance correctly and over straining her legs. Just my thoughts.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Username: jcluvhrses

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Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 05:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the article link Bill...AND...love that video of Stacy and Roxie that is one of my all time favorites too. Gives you goosebumps.
Everything is a choice.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5455
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, question off topic but wondering what you think. Does resetting shoes for 3 or 4 resets where the toes of the shoes start to wear down cause unbalance in the horse's hoof? Or is that okay? If you were shoeing your horse year round, how often would you put new shoes on? Would you keep them fresh and new or wait until they wore down? Which is better for the integrity of the horse's hoof and hoof health? Keeping a horses' hoof level is so important, do worn toes affect hoof health if you continually reset them?
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5993
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It depends on how worn they are. I wouldn't want the shoe to break because of wear. A worn toe that's still safe might help with break over. Actually you can buy them that way, some made to set back a bit for the same reason. When I trim barefoot, I bevel from 10-2 at the toe for break over. http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Breakover.html
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5459
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, they were not worn to the point of breaking, just worn to the point of I felt they were not the same as the sides of the shoe. That looks like a really good site, thanks for posting. Thanks for the post about breakover. Interesting about how you bevel for breakover, I think I need to learn more about that. I had a farrier a long time ago, tell me that it was crucial to make sure the hoof is always level. It's been a while but I thought he said to do a reset is okay but don't do continuous resets as the shoe will wear and become uneven. MY tb has low slung heels and her hoof and toes tend to grow out quickly. The toes of the shoes were worn down and I just wanted to make sure to keep her feet level. Was surprised he said they were still good. So wondering how important being totally level really is? Good site, on breakover and landing, thanks for posting. :-) Years ago when I boarded, there was a farrier who did my horses who put new shoes on every single time. It is strange how there are different beliefs about this out there. And wondering if this does affect the horses hooves. I seem to only be able to get a new pair of shoes once a year with this particular blacksmith.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Username: jcluvhrses

Post Number: 12790
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Posted on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 01:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Low slung heels can be corrected and shouldn't be a chronic problem if the feet are trimmed properly. You have to back up the toe and keep it that way and allow the tubules to grow down straighter rather than forward pulling the heel with them.
You can certainly tell him one reset if fine but after that you'd prefer new shoes.
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5997
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 01:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This trim is pretty much how I do a barefoot trim. If I were putting shoes on, I would trim the foot using the same parameters but the sole would be flat around the perimeter so there would be no gaps between the shoe and the sole, a level nailing surface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDcEcK3oDMw&t=4s
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6024
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2017 - 05:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was sifting through some of my videos and came across this one. This is Willy on his first trail ride. A good calm trail companion is a plus when teaching a horse to trail ride. A short, but not tight rein, with hands just in front of the pommel and a well timed hind end disengagement are good tools to have with you. If you can stop the buck before the horse gets' it's head down and redirect before the horse really gets to bucking helps. Never know what's around the next corner. This wasn't that bad but if I let him focus on the scary, it could have been.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u67ftPDx8Bk
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5501
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2017 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That was awesome. Lots of good information here. Willy seemed to be trying to find his feet at the canter and on the trail in general. What a great first ride out. I was mad that stupid dog showed up. If only people knew how dangerous that can be for a rider. They should keep them leashed or fenced in or at least be with them when they are loose to call them back. That was an accident waiting to happen and glad Willy showed such composure. That made me very nervous. Sometimes those yippy little dogs will chase horses and people so you really need to be careful with that. But Willy did great and he seemed quite relaxed on the way home.

Seems common to get a few bucks when they learn to canter. Good to see how a little disengaging got that problem resolved. I also like how you keep checking his whoa by backing and then immediately going forward.

Brumby was her usual awesome self. You are lucky to have such a great trail partner. :-) Has Willy been out lately? How is he doing? I feel like he is such a super horse with so much talent. He should have a great future ahead of him.

And more important how is that hip doing? Did the injection help?
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6025
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2017 - 03:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, the little yippers can be a surprise but hey that's all part of the training.The dog has been out since then but Willy didn't pay much attention to it. I really don't mind stuff like this as long as I'm not daydreaming but I wouldn't be daydreaming on a green horse anyway.
I was meandering down a trail one day on a rock solid horse, just enjoying the ride when blasting out the bushes was my neighbors Newfoundland dog. Of course my horse and I both thought it was a bear. Somehow I managed to stay on the 180. I settled her down and then chased the dog back to the house.

Yes, Willy is just trying to figure the feet thing while carrying about 240lbs, plus the footing isn't exactly like an arena.
No problem after a few canters.
Yes again, The whoa, ho or whatever coupled with backing gets them thinking stop, especially when your weight is shifted back and deep in the saddle.
Lilly is a real asset out on the trail, a real steady horse that helps young green horses get over the hump.

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