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bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5954
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 07:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just for discussion.
I'm sure in the end, I hope, the horse learns to settle down and be less fearful. The horse is dangerous in his present state, has no respect for the trainer and is scared.
For me, I would have him in a round pen, no ropes, whips, just move his feet and wait for the relaxation signs and let him join up with me. One small step at a time.
Sometimes it's better to burn off a little anxiety without the pressure. Jodie was a smart horse that liked ducking behind other horses to avoid work. Much different from this horse. She wasn't scared, this horse is.
The horse is dangerous in his present state and will revert back to this behavior when things start going south, especially with a fearful owner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ1Ln9AS2IM&t=8s
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5955
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 07:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He's much better but no way is he trail safe. He may come around but the owner has to be consistent with softening him up and keeping him soft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Ozf3MpPTw
memom (memom)
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Username: memom

Post Number: 4970
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Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Poor horse, a long way to go but at least a start. Not a situation I could deal with but hopefully the owner can keep up the calm slow approach. The pat downs were interesting
"Don't wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain."(author?)MA
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5966
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2017 - 02:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scared horse.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SDo0i35sGM&feature=youtu.be
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 5967
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2017 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scared donkey?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rgcHSF8nFo
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6027
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2017 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scared Willy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzzxdPouptU&t=2s
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5503
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love Willy! He has so much potential and his training is going so well, it looks like. Bomb Proof and all your time spent with him is looking like it really has paid off. He is beautiful, super smart and sweet. You obviously have his trust and a bond with him.

So do me a favor. Read this. http://www.proequinegrooms.com/tips/grooming/put-down-the-wd40-and-step-away-from-your-horse/
and then tell me if you agree or disagree with it. Esp if you would be concerned spraying forelock near eyes? Also, do me a favor and look at this. This is what I have used for years and LOVE it! Contains provitamins to nourish coats and silk proteins to strengthen manes and tails and promote stronger, longer hair https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/showsheen-hair-polish-detangler-40-fl-oz
Maybe u could give it a test run sometime and see how you like it?

Remember to keep an open mind to new things, I always try to do the same. :-) Think if you were spraying your own hair which one you'd rather use?

Also love the donkey and love Spikey!! :-) The donkey you can see, totally trusts you. :-)
tbtrakh (tbaby)
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Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3126
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 01:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I always use show sheen for manes and tails and I leave my horses manes and tails long. Cowboy magic also works with detangling and is safer than wd40.
I'd be worried about the horses grooming each other and eating wd40 by accident. Not that toxic fly sprays are much better. I have natural safe fly sprays thus year from smartpak, don't work. I spray them right on flies and they don't move, peppermint oil and all.
You definitely do all the background work of desensitizing though, that's awesome.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5504
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 03:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another article on WD40:

I would not use WD-40 on my horses' manes or tails. It has hexane (similar to kerosene) in it, not fish oil. It causes drying and flaking and can cause allergic reactions.

While it has many uses, I won't use it on my horses or me. It's potentially harmful if absorbed into the skin. If you check out the article below, you'll see why you should not use it on yourself or your horse. Pay particular attention to the pesticide interaction... many fly sprays contain pyrethrin.

WD-40 for Arthritis?
© 2005 Katherine Poehlmann, Ph.D.

A popular myth has grown around the use of WD-40 as a joint lubricant and pain reliever for arthritis. The liquid is sprayed on the painful joint much as one would fix a squeaky mechanical hinge. To be used by the body, the substance must be absorbed through the skin. The thinner the skin, the more is absorbed.
To date, no credible scientific studies have shown any benefit from the use of WD-40 for arthritis. In fact, there may be cumulative harmful effects. The manufacturer's warning indicates that contact with skin and vapors should be avoided. WD-40 contains petroleum distillates, as do gasoline and oil. Problems ranging from mild skin rash to severe allergic reactions have been reported. Prolonged exposure can cause cancer and other serious health problems.
WD-40 has a documented dangerous synergism with insecticides, notably pyrethrin, the active ingredient in head lice medication and some dandruff shampoos. Pyrethrin is made from dried, concentrated powder of flowers from the chrysanthemum family. Both the natural pyrethrin and synthetic pyrethroid insecticides mimic the hormone estrogen, which causes cell proliferation. Misuse of these insecticides can result in proliferation of breast cancer cells as well as endocrine disruption, kidney problems, and nerve damage.
Proponents of WD-40 may be experiencing a placebo effect or may realize some benefit from increased blood circulation in the affected area as the substance is massaged into the skin. Breathing the vapor may have a temporary pain-killing effect, but delicate linings in the nose, throat, mouth, and lungs may be damaged.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5505
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 03:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Then read that some people use Beer. Was surprised to read this:

https://forum.horsetopia.com/health-nutrition/151499-how-get-out-bad-matts-knots-manes-tails.html
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5506
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 03:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How to get out BAD matts an knots in manes an tails
I get asked alot by folks how I get out really bad knots an matts in a horse's mane an tail. I know there are 1000 ways to do it, but this is how I do it and because I love yall I am gonna share the secrete with ya.... Keep in mind I do NOT cut manes, nor tails no mater how bad they are.

you need 3 things.
Beer, Conditioner (i use mane an tail or silkote), and a good sturdy comb and of course time to do it.

First wet down the area you are going to work on with the beer (yes you can use the cheep stuff but my personal favs are coors, michalobe, an budwiser), once you have it good an wet apply your conditioner an work it in as good as you can with your hands. if you work the area good enough you can get it good an saturated with both the beer and the conditioner. Next take your comb an start at the bottom an start carefuly using the 1st tooth of the comb to begin seperating the area out into smaller areas it makesit so much easier once you get them seperated out to work on them. If you get to an area that feels like your pulling to hard make sure you hold onto it above the area with one hand so your not pulling on the neck of the horse but work it loose an use the first tooth or 2 or help pick out those strands.
Do not let the area you are working on dry, keep it nice an moist with the beer, an don't be afraid of the conditioner your not gonna use to much. once you have it worked out rinse the area with the beer. brush and let dry an your done .

btw do not use cold beer, you want it least room temperature, the first time you do it to wet the hair use the beer when you first open it but for inital rinses an keeping an area wet let the beer sit for a lil bit, usually by the time you need it again its gotten alil flat so it will be perfect for the rinse. I average 2 maybe 3 cans on a really bad case.

you may ask why beer?
1st the beer before its flat will strip away nasty stuff like oils, dirt, chemicles etc.
2nd. beer is made from hops which is high in protein. The proteins actually bind to the hair itself as you use it repairing damage such as breakage (for brittle hair) and strengthns each strand individually. The hops also contain sugars which make the hair very soft an give it lots of bounce an body as well as nice an shiny as it tightens the hair cuticle itself.

btw a good ale or lager works best because of the hops but you can get away with using the cheeper wheat beers.

It works on your own hair to you will be amazed wehat it can do for hair damaged by chemicles, sun, chlorine etc. .
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5507
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 03:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would absolutely not recommend using WD-40 on ANY animal or person! It's not a cleaner in the same line as a detergent, shampoo or soap. It is composed of mineral oils and light lubricating oils. It is a lubricant and fine oil spray, and is used for lubrication and cleaning water out of metal joints to prevent corrosion. It also dissolves cocaine, so spraying a loo seat with it in a club prevents people from snorting cocaine there.

I don't know much about horse grooming (not a horse owner!) but try horse-safe detergents and lots and lots and lots of water. NOT WD-40, or white spirit.

EDIT: I just checked the can we have in the garage, and while it doesn't carry a HARMFUL or IRRITANT symbol, it does say to avoid contact with skin and to not breathe the fumes, vapour or spray.

WD-40 is a good solvent for many greases and displaces water, which is why it's used to prevent corrosion. But you'd be better off keeping it for when the buckle on your girth siezes up or something.
I would like to add just FYI, that it contains DMSO, a solvent commonly used medicinally to carry good drugs into the blood stream, however the problem with that is any impurities or toxins are also brought directly into the bloodstream. It's immediately absorbed, too, which is why when used for liniments and medicines you will want to use rubber gloves as some of the meds are harmful to people.

My stepdad (old enough to be my grandfather) says oldtimers used to use WD40 on their knees to help with arthritis (DMSO can increase blood circulation and help with joint pain) but the other chemicals were also absorbed quickly and made some people sick before they figured out why.

Sooo. WD40 is great stuff I'd use on hardware and stuff, but I'd never purposly put on animals or people. I know some people say it's great to get sap out of manes, but I'd just not go there...try baby oil instead.
jcluvhrses (jcluvhrses)
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Username: jcluvhrses

Post Number: 12806
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Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 04:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cowboy Magic works like a charm for matting, especially from burrs.
Everything is a choice.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6029
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 08:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well mares, my experimental lab says wd40 is fine. for manes and tails. Lab says 15 years of experiments is worth something. I don't have any of the issues you mentioned, none, never. The only place I use it on is manes, tails and forelock. I don't use it on joints. I also used all the above mentioned products. wd40 works as well but not better. 20.00 a gallon verses?
By the way, kerosine is a natural substance, from dead plants and animals. Did you ever use vaseline on your body, It's petrolium
Remember, wd40 only on manes, tails and forelocks, not on my or my horses body.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6030
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2017 - 08:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe this what's in Cowboy Magic? Item Specifications: Ingredients: Cyclomethicone, dimethiconol, C 12-15 alkyl benzoate, octyl methoxycinnamete, tocopheryl acetate, panthenol, silk amino acids, methyl-paraben, proplyparaben, and fragrance. wd40 looks safer.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5508
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WD 40 is very clear, on both sides of the can, about itís uses and the serious hazards. A few highlights of the WD 40 warnings:


Harmful or fatal if swallowed. Ok, your horse is not going to drink it, but he may chew his buddies tail or ingest some when heís mutually grooming his BFF.


Flammable. This means, literally, easily set on fire.


Inhalation of spray mist may be harmful or fatal. Is it really worth it?


Skin contact - wash with soap and water. WD 40 is not designed to touch skin! Ever!!


Eye contact - flush eyes with large amounts of water for 15 minutes. (Have you ever seen your horse rub his face on his front legs?) This is how chemicals end up in horse eyes.


The warnings continue on the back of the can!
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5509
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whenever someone recommends a product to be used on my horses that isn't for horses, I always like to pull up the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS).

Here is the MSDS for WD40.

https://www.wd40company.com/files/pdf/sds/mup/wd-40-multi-use-product-aerosol-sds-us-ghs-7-20-14.pdf
Under #4 First Aid measures WD40 should be washed off with soap and water if it gets on your skin. Under #2 Hazarads it is Harmful or fatal if swallowed. The product is an aspiration hazard. If swallowed, it can enter the lungs and cause pneumonitis, severe lung damage, and death.

Just based on the MSDS I wouldn't put it on my horse.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5510
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wouldn't use it because WD-40 is pretty much pure hydrocarbons (petrochemicals), but they won't tell you the exact formula. Many hydrocarbons are known carcinogens so I wouldn't want to expose my horse or myself to that.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5511
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mixing it with fly spray not good for Willy. After you sprayed him with repel-x then sprayed his tail with wd40, he will be swishing his tail and hitting his sides all day with the wd40, in effect mixing the two.

WD-40 has a documented dangerous synergism with insecticides, notably pyrethrin, the active ingredient in head lice medication and some dandruff shampoos. Pyrethrin is made from dried, concentrated powder of flowers from the chrysanthemum family. Both the natural pyrethrin and synthetic pyrethroid insecticides mimic the hormone estrogen, which causes cell proliferation. Misuse of these insecticides can result in proliferation of breast cancer cells as well as endocrine disruption, kidney problems, and nerve damage.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
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Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5512
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MSDS on Show Sheen. Ingredients, Methyl Salicylate
Silicone https://www.statelinetack.com/ContentFiles/Associated_Content/showsheenMSDS.pdf
Not carcinogenic.
Which would you rather use on your horses tail?
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5513
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I only took all this time and trouble to point out a few facts, because I really care about Willy. He is a sweet and trusting boy and although your heart is forever in the right place regarding your horses, I don't think this is good for him. You will do what you think is best. Maybe you should ask your wife? You once stated she was in nursing, maybe she could shed some light on this topic and what is in Willy's best interest.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5514
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 03:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At least, keep it away from his eyes.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6031
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 05:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mares, If you read the detailed info. on every product from Meds. to plastic and their potential harmful effects to you and your horses, you wouldn't use anything.

I remember the scare of power lines way back, Emf, seriously. This was my business, I had 23,000 volts in my hands everyday. I'm still kicking. The alarmists over do the alarms, to the point of not trusting anything.

I appreciate your concerns but my horses, for the most part, live the way God intended, natural. No grain, just grass or grass hay. no stalls, they have shelter if they want it. No chlorinated water, no additives, no supplements, nothing except a big salt block they like licking. When the bugs are real bad I do stray them, lyme is a threat.
I haven't washed a horse in 20 years. Shampoo and conditioner will probably remove the natural oils out of their skin. The horse may have the last word on that. What's the first thing they do after a bath? roll. in the s...t .
I have healthily horses. My horses don't even get rain rot, they've built up an immunity to it. I did have a couple of horses with lyme about 6 years ago, I think they even built up an immunity to this.

I can't protect them from all accidents, S... happens. Same with kids, I'm not going to bubble wrap them. 'Live free or die' My horses do, as close to free as they can and still be domesticated.

Back to wd40. I may put some on their manes and tails once a month, I don't soak them in it and I certainly don't put it in their eyes, intentionally. I have no horses with sight issues, none.
Oh, I forgot, blankets, no blankets, not even when it's 20 below. They all grow awesome coats.. They huddle in a herd as they would in the wild, butts to the wind.

Everyone seems to have suggestions on horse care. I do, for sure. My suggestion? Quit babying them, let them be horses. I think some owners just over think horses. Remember, all these horse products aren't just for the good for the horse but good for the companies bottomline.
So my suggestion...don't use wd40
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6032
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also mares, yes, my wife is an RN, my daughter is also an RN, my son-in law is an MD, his sister is an Vet. I went to Special Forces combat medic school at Ft Bragg. There are resources for me to draw from.. Again, don't use wd40
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5517
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

God bless you Bill. Long live the 82nd Airborne!
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3128
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 04:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some horses thrive on living the wild life like my young one. Some don't like my ancient tb. Had her since she was 7. Every time I put her in a herd to be a horse, she suffered from every affliction known to vets, and even some new ones never heard of.
She gets cornered and beat up awfully in herd turnout unless she finds a boss horse to befriend and defend her. As a filly her mom attacked her so bad they had to be separated and she still has scars along her rump and hind legs. 28 years later. Maybe never socialized right? Her mom was later euthanized for aggressive behavior. Why she was bred who knows but I'm sure glad I've had over 20 years with my girl as a result.
The herd wild life has yielded her countless times of rainrot, years of chronic lyme (no immunity for her), a broken pastern and allergic burn reaction to surpass - the only known horse ever to have had one, chronic mystery hives all over her body from unknown allergy to weeds, shivering and chronic underweight from not enough blankets, many injuries and stitches,infections, forced stall rest from being beat up, pacing and fretting to the point of ulcers and colic if then separated from her chosen buddy, colic from antibiotics from cuts from turnout injuries and just a miserable unhappy horse. Last 24/7 turnout in a place with a sociopath bo almost killed her and I got robbed of a months board to save her life and get out asap because I couldn't stand watching her slowly dying in front of me.
Cushing's means all the gorgeous grass she loves will kill her, it's given me months of vet bills from these blasted abscesses and headaches and backaches from fighting to treat her feet daily since june.
Each horse is different. Thoroughbreds bred solely for speed and not durability do NOT always thrive on the natural outdoor herd life. I've been brainwashed into thinking that's the best thing for all horses the whole 25 years I've owned and leased horses. Maybe it's best for quarter horses and Arabs and tough horses like my boy. But it's cost me and my delicate girl nothing but pain, sickness and thousands of dollars in vet bills. What's funny is she's told me for decades and I had to learn to listen to her and not all the experts around me. She HATES being out in the rain or snow. If in a runout situation, she stays warm and dry in her stall and won't go out. If I pick up her blanket, she walks away if she's fine or comes over and sticks her own head in the neck opening and pushes it over her own back. She's learned to talk very clearly to the dumb human over the years.
I'm glad your horses are healthy and happy and thrive outside. One of mine does, the other needs to be pampered. What would you do if one of them got Cushing's and couldn't have grass? Just curious, not trying to argue. It kills me to keep her from grass and limit the carrots, she loves both.
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3129
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 04:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Without her 16 quarts of low starch grain a day, and hay stretcher, she'd either still be a 2 body condition or be dead by now. She barely eats any hay, a few flakes a day, mainly wastes it. Grass will kill her with the cushings.
My dog was eating normal dog food, turns out he has food allergies and ibd so was getting liquid diarrhea all over the apartment. Cleaning up the amount a 75 pound dog can do overnight meant yep he gets a diet change, both for the stink and not cleaning that up anymore. Yuck.

My little cat is allergic to everything and literally licking his fur off and has huge bloody patches and raw spots everywhere. My other cat lost weight and both are thin, time for more fattening food as the old ones not cutting it. And no ingredients the little ones allergic too. My childhood cats ate Cat Chow and people food and lived to be 19 and 20, none of this food allergy stuff. Last dog ate anything and everything including pizza, cheeseburgers and french fries and science diet and alpo. Til the day he died, had diarrhea twice ever, not til age 10 or 11.
I like the hardier animals they're cheaper and easier. Recently I keep getting stuck with high maintenance ones though :-( lovable but pitas.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5519
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 07:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tb, why won't she eat hardly any hay?
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3130
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 07:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She's always been a hay snob. She loves grass. Never liked hay much, not as good I guess. I'm currently paying $11 a bale for 46 pounds bales of Canadian second cut hay which she eats a bit of and uses to spread around her stall like bedding. So I throw out and waste a ton of it. If I put it in a haybag or net she won't touch it and looks woefully at me like I'm abusing her. So she gets hay stretcher and I give her a few flakes a day to play with, she does eat some. When I clean her stall she furiously eats any dry hay I dare to put in the wheelbarrow. If I give her more than 4 quarts of hay stretcher a day, she leaves that too.
Her son vacuums all the hay he gets from a bag, net or floor and once again looks pregnant with the hay belly. No more ribs so regained the weight he lost at the last place.

I guess her Royal Highness just prefers grass. There's no way she'd eat enough hay to maintain her weight, she'd literally starve to death first. She hasn't been in any work in months, and even when she was it was occasional light lunging to keep her sane and moving.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
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Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6034
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 08:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First off, I've had TB's. The last two I had both were pin-fired and right off the track. I've also had a few basket cases. I also have a coming 30 year old mare. I've had over 150 horses all treated the same way, living conditions the same as the dozen I have now. My cow, alpaca and pig are also treated the same,

I don't really don't want to discuss horse care with you. I'm sure others will. The way we do horse care are miles apart so no matter what I say it won't influence you, or others. Lets just say, I'll carry on and suffer the consequences. I hope nothing but the best for you and your horses.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5520
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 09:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tb, you've been through a lot esp the last year with your girl. I am so glad she is settled now. She may have idiosyncrasies, but that's okay, at her age, she needs to be catered to as much as possible. Horrible her first few months of life she was attacked by her mom. Sounds like maybe her mom could have been abused? That is very strange behavior for a mare. Would a hay rack work for her in her stall? Just a thought. Glad you're getting her mentally and physically more settled and stable. Do whatever you've got to do for her.
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3131
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 04:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your kind comments as always maresrgreat. I really don't know much about her mom other than that my girl's first and only other owners just said that she was always a bit witchy and difficult in general and that my girl got her overall laidback attitude from her father and grandfather. She can be spooky now but that's because she has ever increasing cataracts in both eyes and a cyst in the left eye. She's always been very bold and willing in jumping and riding (except dressage). Things have changed in her personality due to her sight issues. She's never been cranky except when she's had ulcers, then she gets girthy.
They did say her mom developed a neurological condition as she aged which made her aggressive to the point of dangerous which made it necessary to euthanize her.
She has eaten from a haynet less than a year ago so I'm wondering if she doesn't like the haynet I bought. She is allergic to dust, as am I, from years of riding in dusty indoor and outdoor arenas so I'm hesitant to force her to eat with her head up and start the coughing again, especially where she's cooped up and not turned out yet.
Any more updates, I can put back on her thread since I don't want to hijack this thread. Sorry I did this much hijacking already!
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3132
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 04:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I just want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to criticize you or your methods of caring for your horses. I think your system in general is great for the vast majority! I wasn't trying to start an argument with you either. I just was curious what you would do if one of your beloved herd members of many years suddenly developed Cushing's disease, or sight issues, or many chronic severe abscesses like my girl at an advanced age and started telling you clearly that he/she wasn't happy being out with a herd anymore?
Suddenly from an abscess(or two) they're lying down all the time and refusing to eat much or even stand. Vet says they'll be fine in a couple of weeks. Then it morphs into Cushing's, no more grass but excellent prognosis with proper diet but they've lost weight so extra grain to get it back on. Oh and some age related cysts and cataracts on the eyes so now sight issues.
With age, things like that all creep up and horses and other animals compensate very well until too many things at once overwhelm them.

I'm not telling you what to do, or arguing, simply asking as one horse owner to another; do you just keep the herd and get rid of a trusted beloved partner of 20 years because they don't fit the herd, or do you accommodate your most loyal partner as long as they have a reasonable chance to have a comfortable happy life?

Not one single vet has recommended euthanasia, and I've asked many times to the point where I think they believe I'm trying to just kill her off, which is by no means true.

Every other horse I've ever owned, leased, or just ridden (not even close to 150!) has thrived or at least done well in the "turnout as much as possible on minimal or no grain and as much grass to be natural unless actively showing and competing and they can't keep weight on" theory.

What did you do with your tbs, your basket cases? Your 30 year old mare gets grain in a feedbag I think I remember, what if she had Cushing's and couldn't have grass anymore and had constant abscesses from the Cushing's? Or suddenly started getting beat up constantly because she couldn't hold her own in the pecking order of the herd?

You made the blanket statement of not babying horses but every video you post and everything you write on here conveys your love for horses in general, and your horses in particular. So I admit I'm curious.
Maybe I'm completely insane and go above and beyond for my mare who knows. But we've been through a lot in almost 21 years.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6035
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 07:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well tbaby, you've asked specific questions so I can give you an answer for what I do.
First off, I don't call vets unless I absolutely can't figure out
a problem. I've mentioned Dr. Grass. I learned this from a horse owner/trader who has had thousands of horses. In oth.
er words, he knew that most ailments will resolve themselves if you give them the time and let them run free, it's mental healing which promotes physical healing. When I say run free I don't mean in a 50' turnout.

In my opinion, horses were meant to move and graze in a herd. They should be on the move 20+ hours a day. Most TB racehorses are confined to a stall almost their whole life except for their exercise routine and race day. I've spent lots of time around racehorses, I worked for a few owners that traveled the race circuit. My job was cooling them off after a workout or race. I did this before and after school and during race weeks.

This is where I noticed neurologic problems with these horses. Some would stall walk, crib, weave, shake their heads, turn into woodchucks etc. Boredom was the culprit, no interaction with other horses. No touch feely.. These non natural conditions, I'm sure, led to health problem.

I realize not everyone, around these parts have access to the conditions my horses have. I own 25 acres of land, that's not that much but about 25 years ago I started helping an old couple down the road with their beef cattle business. I did this, not for money but because they were getting up in age and I genuinely liked them and their animals, plus I worked a full-time job. When they passed, the family said use the land. That's when I became a small time horse trader, hence all the horses and the Dr. Grass way of thinking. So 25 acres turned into 500 and it gave me the opportunity to experiment with back to wild, in a domestic kind of way.
"I'm not telling you what to do, or arguing, simply asking as one horse owner to another; do you just keep the herd and get rid of a trusted beloved partner of 20 years because they don't fit the herd, or do you accommodate your most loyal partner as long as they have a reasonable chance to have a comfortable happy life?"
Answer. ..When a particular horse caught my eye, I'd move it to a pasture for keepers until I could figure out whether I really wanted to keep it or not. Guess what? I ended up with a pasture of keepers..they're still here.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6036
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 07:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a deal with my horses. I can't break the bank on any one horse. They will live free until hey can't. Knowing that my resources are limited, I've learned how to do most horse care myself. I know when to cry uncle. When Cody broke his leg 2 years ago ( a lightning bolt hit next to him and he spooked over an embankment and broke his left front leg above the knee). The prognosis was obvious. For his sake and my sake I called a vet out to verify the obvious which resulted in euthanasia. That was the last time I had a vet out. That was one of the worse days of my life, Cody was my favorite. He did die free as free as a domestic horse can be. As I said, I don't bubble wrap them. I also learned something from my horse Pokey that day.
"What did you do with your tbs, your basket cases? Your 30 year old mare gets grain in a feedbag I think I remember, what if she had Cushing's and couldn't have grass anymore and had constant abscesses from the Cushing's? Or suddenly started getting beat up constantly because she couldn't hold her own in the pecking order of the herd?"
I sold the Tb's to hopefully good homes. My 30 year old mare that I've owned for 22 years has 30 year old teeth. The extruded senior grain is easier for her to chew. She also eats grass and grass hay along with the rest of them. The grain bag makes it simple to feed grain to a single horse in a herd.
None of my horses are basket cases anymore. Beat up? I would never put a horse in a position of no escape. When they are establishing or re establishing a pecking order, I just let them do it their way. They will figure it out, their way. If you don't let them do it their way, there will always be unfinished business. The key is to always allow the horse an escape. They know what they're doing, it's the humans that can't figure it out.
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3134
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 07:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I appreciate your response. I wasnt trying to offend you as I said before.
My tb never actually raced. She was sent to the track for training but I was told she didn't really like it and wasn't really fast enough to be worth pushing it, so was sent back to her first home in Connecticut and trained to be a young show horse. They discovered that she LOVED jumping so pursued that and sent her to North or South Carolina for competing and a young rider leased her for a while. Then she taught the owner's 65 year old husband how to event. He'd get on her (6'5 & skinny) with long whip and spurs and gun her to every fence in sight. She never stopped but took care of him though he was way too big for her at 16 hands.
Always had turnout and buddies and a normal life except her mother trying to kill her. Never bonded with any horse or human except me, and many years later, her son. It took a year for me to feel bonded to her, but she was so pleasant on our first rides together that her first owner said she chose me because she was never that sweet to any new rider.
You never said what you would do if your pasture of keepers developed chronic abscesses or Cushing's or sight issues, or any combination of these issues which many old horses get, and couldn't thrive on group pasture anymore.
I don't have a typical tb racehorse who's been on a track her whole life and never learned to be out with others. She's been turned out in a herd since birth and just doesn't thrive on it anymore for a variety of reasons.
Age, slower reflexes, health, less confidence, poor sight, all contribute to why some horses may not thrive in their late 20s and beyond in a group setup.
In the wild, how long do horses live? 10, 15? Any make it to 28 or 30?
Do the keepers deserve special treatment and accommodations after a certain age? If they're lying down dead lame and refusing to get up or eat? After many years of being loyal partners?
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6037
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 08:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I was referring to open spaces where they had room to escape, this is what I meant. A simple intro., it's feel thing. This is how they operate. It's almost always this way. Sometimes they will rotate roles. This is the development of a herd pecking order. Just let them do it without interference, as long as they don't get trapped. This is all normal. https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=dgpRUHV-fg0

If you notice in the video, Freddie was playing stallion, keeping the new comer away from the herd. If you notice at the gate a mare was standing away from the others out of harms way. She is allow horse on the pecking order and knows enough to steer clear.

If a dominant horse got an abscess and was dead lame, that horse would be dominated by the others until it recovered completely. A horse herd relies on a leader. If the horse can't lead they'll find one that can, even if it temporary. It may seem like bullying but it's natural to their survival. Knowing this, I would separate them and feed the lame horse separate but allow it to move around if it chose to. Lame horses in the wild have to keep up with the herd or die. I'm not sure of what the life expectancy is in the wild but I would imagine would depend on conditions.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6038
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, September 22, 2017 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another short one. Grass, sugar content etc.? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnjIkuDG480
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6055
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2017 - 07:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jodie,today..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ggKl3kcAU
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5556
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2017 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice day for a nice ride. U are amazing going under her. I had to laugh. Y and Spikey brought a smile to my face. Interesting set up with the reins on the bit as a secondary method of control. Love how well trained she is just on the pressure of the rope halter. So if u ever did come across a bear, could you outrun it on Jodi? Hoping you've never had this happen. Also, I have heard horees are inherintley afraid of cows. Does it take a while to get them to go as close as Jodi did?
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6057
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2017 - 07:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well mares, I trust my training and the horse. I trust Jodie otherwise no way would I crawl under her.

Sometimes I use a bridle with a neck rope, same reasons, it depends on the conditions.

It depends on the bear. Most of these bears have seen horses and likewise. They've been in the same pasture together grazing. A problem could come up with a bear that is new to horses? I've run across bears before on the trail, they usually go their own way. I haven't had any confrontations, if I did, I'd play it by ear and hope I make the right choice. Horse verses bear in a race? Not sure but the horses is carrying the weight of rider and gear. I think I might want to stand it down?

Cows? As with anything else when it comes to scare, introduce a little at a time. Some horses react to cows , some don't. My horses are separated from these cows by a fence about 10' away,. Jodie may even have cow friends I don't know about.

You can't expose your horse to every scary thing there is. You can however get your horse to trust you by introducing scare from a distance and feel your way in. The horse is learning to trust you as a leader even though it knows you're a human. A horse would rather take flight than fight. If the leader isn't scared, there is probably less chance the flight instinct won't kick in. When I'm around a horse my demeanor makes a difference, on or off the horse.
I like this little video because it shows exactly what I'm saying. Watch Pokey, the other horses are watching Pokey's reaction to the scare with flight mode ready to kick in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1zodKyRjI
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5557
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 03:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool video. Amazing how smart Pokey is to know this is a human! Great desensitizing. My new neighbor just moved next door with 7 kids, motorcycles and 4 wheelers going full force and kids screaming all the time. at first I was upset from the change of the serenity we used to have but then I looked at it as desensitizing for the horses. Also, helps with kids in school now most of the day so I can have some nice morning training sessions with some peace of mind. :-)
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6058
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 06:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peace and quite is nice, Ha! sounds like you're getting desensitized.
I always figured if you tiptoed around a horse, that's what you would always have to do.
If you think about it, not all horse events are quiet. Think about parades, arenas with a thousand less than quiet people around. Exposure is everything. Cowboy mounted shooting for one, at some point you have to expose your horse to a gun shot.
Bring on the kids and motorcycles!
If your horse trusts you when scary is around, the flight instinct might stay in control. Pokey was checking things out, the other horse were checking Pokey out, they were nervous but hung with him. My horses check me out to see how I react, even if I'm the one applying the pressure. Timing and release is everything. Bill's not scared, maybe it's not so bad, we'll trust him, like Pokey.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5559
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're right, I am getting desensitized along with the horses!!! lol... Good points about trust. Will have to remember that when I'm bringing up my 4 year old and the motorcycles go roaring up the hill next to us!! If we can get used to that without getting killed we'll be doing good. They are plenty nervous for sure, esp my young one. He doesn't know what to think. There are several cycles racing nearby all at once and a 4 cycle one that is super loud. However they have been exposed to it for a little bit now so hoping it will be getting better with time. Good points on being the leader, will remember that... The thing is when u get them used to your 4 wheeler, you have control of starting and stopping. When I am out there with these kids on motorcycles, we just have to deal with their crazy racing and screaming. They are really close by, and seem to not care at all when the horses react. :-( Like the noise of the cycles isn't enough. And the 4 cycle is really loud. I think they are actually getting better and used to it though so hopefully will continue okay.
sabrina (sabrinatmc)
Junior Member
Username: sabrinatmc

Post Number: 3637
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 01:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

mares when I had my horse's at my old barn in Berkley. we had motorcycles ride past the farm all the time. and we were there for 4 years. every spring I would ask my Bo to start up her bike just to get them prepared for the season. they would freak and stop and just look at the bike. over time and with alot of exposure. whenever they heard a motorcycle. it doesn't freak them out. even my new Bo cousin came to visit for a month. he would start his bike up and go to work. my new Bo couldn't believe that my boys didn't pay any attention to the sound of the bike. they were all calm and if it's a daily routine like using the vacuum on them. just give it time with alot of exposure.
maresrgreat (maresrgreat)
Junior Member
Username: maresrgreat

Post Number: 5560
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 02:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sabrina, I get what you are saying and I think they will get used to it and already have to "a degree" not totally. It is more the racing up and down the hill on a circle and the screaming and yelling at the same time they are racing that adds to the drama of it all. But boy, if they get used to that, they will be a long way toward desensitized!! Thanks for the words of encouragement. :-) Good to hear of your success dealing with the motorcycles.
tbtrakh (tbaby)
Junior Member
Username: tbaby

Post Number: 3167
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 04:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I boarded at a place for a couple of years where they had random people on four wheelers doing that with the screaming and yelling. My boy could care less. My mare was already late teens or around 20 and it just made her more spooky. Already having sight issues starting though, she was less spooky when younger before the eye cyst and cataracts, but never as bombproof as her son. The randomness and my lack of control over the sudden noises just made her worse. If she sppoked at something in the woods and I went back to ride by it and have her look and sniff she'd only get more scared and have a complete meltdown. Better just riding through the spook and proceeding. All depends on the individual horse.
memom (memom)
Junior Member
Username: memom

Post Number: 5003
Registered: N/A
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2017 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Riding in Douglas the other day, we could hear a very loud dirt bike zooming around the bends in the trail. Fellow rider and I just stood and waited for them to see us. Horses didnít care at all and the kids on the dirt bike shut it down. They are nor allowed there but we didnít make a big deal. The mountain bikes that swoop up with no sound, that can be a different story.
"Don't wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain."(author?)MA
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6060
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 07:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I live on a main snowmobile trail, it's just on the other side of my round pen. All my horses are use to them. If I get a new horse, I'll gradually walk them up to the trail with a reassuring voice, After an hour or so with 100 snowmobiles going by, it's old hat.
A mountain bike however can kind of sneak up on you, they can't hear it coming until it's close.
Like a deer, when I throw hay out to the horses by my house, most always a few deer are grazing within a stones throw. I'm always whistling, they know me by sound and sight. They stay calm and look back at me now and then, they're almost pets. It would be a different story up on the trail, they would be in the alert mode with good reason, hunting season is approaching.
Like a deer, trust and a reassuring voice go a long way with a horse.
delilah (delilah)
Junior Member
Username: delilah

Post Number: 3814
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2017 - 08:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a huge old mulberry tree outside my paddock. Last year I was doing barn work and I saw something moving (its very over grown and low in spots I call it the grotto) I go look and its young raccoons. They just looked at me and continued to forage. I called my husband and came to take a look, as ssoon as he came near they ran up the tree. He left and down they came. I believe they were so used to me and the sound of my voice, they weren't afraid of me. They were there every evening until the mulberries were gone. Animals study there environment and feel safe with the familiar.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6082
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 07:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes delilah, I was thinking of this last evening when I was throwing some hay out, whistling away as usual. Five deer were eating grass 50 yards from me. They would look up now and then but didn't feel threatened. They felt in their safe zone but, like a horse, would be ready to turn on the flight mode. It's hunting season now, they need to sharpen up their weariness to humans.
bill gokey (bronco_billy)
Junior Member
Username: bronco_billy

Post Number: 6083
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 07:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUxAo9RyIRI. Yogi and CC. One reason why I train them to gun shots. Hunting season.

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